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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 5 post(s) |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
575
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Posted - 2013.04.12 18:38:00 -
[1] - Quote
Nothing about crystal damage spread? It is the only dual-type weapon that goes from a near 50/50 to a 100/0 state in the course of progressing through the ranges. Give them the projectile treatment sp we get lots of choices between therm/EM ratio's with some tracking/range/cap use thrown in on some of them. Would love a low dps, extreme tracking option for instance.
Nothing about lasers in general? Navy MF/Scorch is the only ammo used with Conflag only used against known EM tankers, rest are very situational (Gamma has near MF spread with a little extra range so still seeing some use). All lasers can use more tracking and all can use an ever so slight shift towards falloff (or reverse if you want to be evil) .. would prefer it be done through the ammo, but whatever floats your boat/inflatable girlfriend/cat.
For cap use 10% won't cut it. Consider the Abaddon in its current form (being joined now by Apocalypse), you need two eludite rigs to be semi autonomous using just guns (no MWD even fitted) .. that is a whopping 40% cap use decrease from two rigs which is barely enough to make it past five minutes of guns firing with some ECCM and a hardener thrown in = injector will be mandatory. So even with the -10%, which is an appreciated gesture for sure, you are still looking at a requirement that says injector+2 rigs or cap from outside .. kind of harsh. PS: That is with my maxed skills by the way, imagine what the scrub that you are so concerned about will experience trying to make cap-ends meet
Jezza McWaffle wrote:... Maybe 15% bonus on powergrid reduction for Tachyons? Tachs are for all intents and purposes over-sized modules, as such requiring a fitting mod or two in order to use them more than acceptable .. current state where you have to use considerably more fitting mods however .. |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
576
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Posted - 2013.04.13 06:03:00 -
[2] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:For anyone who wishes this change was more exhaustive... Not I, you just gave me what I asked for .. light at the end of the tunnel. Life with current ammo/guns will carry on, but now I/we know that it will at least be discussed at a later date as time allows.
PS: I used YtterbiumGÖÑFozzie when it was just the two, how the hell do I account for the menage-a-trois now that you have joined their merry band? Fozzie-gets- Rise-out-of-Ytterbium? or Fozzie-gives-Ytterbium-a-Rise?
Pelea Ming wrote:Please, this is not the "Bash Amarr" thread. You misread his post and misunderstood his meaning I think. Scorch has been so good for us (laser users) that it has allowed us to interact with (ie. kill them) the people around us like fully able folk, hence the term "crutch" (leg-braces might be more accurate but not not as short or globally understood). If you are a regularly laser user then think about what ammo you pack when going out the door and ask yourself if that is not a sad state of affairs. Six or seven out of 10 crystals (T1+T2) are so rarely used that one could remove them from game entirely without more than a handful of people even noticing.
Scorch is so good that a kiting trend emerged, using ships that has no business kiting such as the shield Harbinger and Omen (old) culminating with the *First in History* Amarr ship designed specifically for kiting and nothing but, the Omen (new).
Could easily sustain a reduction in tracking or damage without hurting much, provided options exist to change to when the hurt does come .. that is what a crystal/gun revamp could do, a revamp that has been all but promised for the next years (ie.SoonishGäó (further out than SoonGäó)). |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
576
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Posted - 2013.04.13 08:01:00 -
[3] - Quote
Ayla Illat wrote:+1! Looking good!
Though I do wonder... would the recent changes to energy turrets make it possible to slap lasers on non-Amarr hulls? You too young to remember the awesomeness that was the Laser Myrmidon?
This is an effort to alleviate some of the problems that arise by axing that universally hated laser cap "bonus", ships designed for lasers generally have stronger grids and larger caps and some were struggling even with the -50% bonus. So by all means, if you have to cap/grid to burn and the slots to drive them then go ahead (Laser myrm needed a medium injector for guns alone ). Changes would have to massively greater than this to create a scenario where lasers can be swapped for racial guns willy-nilly like we have seen (and still see) with projectiles and a lesser extent blasters. |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
578
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Posted - 2013.04.13 14:55:00 -
[4] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:That was the original theory, it doesn't work like that though does it? Sure it does But with revisions to practically all other weapon systems over the years the advantages have shrivelled into nothingness leaving them with on par performance but with the massive drawbacks intact.
Reckon that is what they are trying to 'fix' now in lieu of a complete laser overhaul.
We are in space dammit. Laser ought to be super-duper compared to silly people throwing solid matter around!
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Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
586
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Posted - 2013.04.14 05:21:00 -
[5] - Quote
Avald Midular wrote:...The Mael and Abaddon have the same PG and yet the Abaddon is supposed to both armor tank AND fit higher PG Tach's, while the Mael shield tanks and gets a higher CPU because ofit, how is that not broken? Hogwash! Either you glossed over it or are just not aware of it .. Tachyons are over-sized weapons, originally intended to allow snipers to compete with rails if I recall. They are not the 'standard' beam. Compare your fittings with that of the Megabeams instead if you want to be accurate/truthful.
In Amarr's heyday, before tier3 BS were around and the lol-Apoc was the fleet ship of choice one frequently only fitted 6-7 of the things because you needed tank enough to withstand to inevitable AoEDD (made obsolete with DoubleAoEDDs ) that always arrived promptly when hostilities kicked off .. Tachyons were used over Megabeams because range was everything with hostile interceptors easily reaching 10k/s, now range is irrelevant .. <100km everyone can reach you, =100km you are subject to MJDs, >100km and probes nail you ..
Actually fascinating to think of where we have been, huge changes on some fronts and little to none on others
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Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
587
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Posted - 2013.04.14 06:20:00 -
[6] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:Avald Midular wrote:
Wait, I'm not supposed to compare Tach's to 1400's? Why? What race's "oversized" weapon do they compare to then and does that race find it physically impossible to fit them on ALL of their T1 BS's?
You should compare tachs to the 1600mm arty, which doesnt exist. 1400mm arty should be compared to mega beams. What the man said. Amarr/Lasers have from the start been something of a problem for CCP, read up on the history starting from the gankageddons of the post beta years to todays Tachyon conundrum. Lasers were the primary, if not the only, reason for the introduction of stacking penalties. They have been smacked with comparatively grotesque fitting/cap requirements to avoid off-race use, they have suffered across the board EM resist increase, tracking reductions and Goddess knows what else over the years and still appear competitive (in some areas at any rate).
Having gone through all that, can you imagine how gamebreakingly OP they must have been in their heyday?
Situation is reversed now obviously and they need buffs, nerfs, which is what we need to help the drunken northerners do in a sensible manner that won't upset the balance once the actual laser revision goes through in the years to come.
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Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
591
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Posted - 2013.04.14 08:17:00 -
[7] - Quote
Vess Starfire wrote:Pulse lasers do waay more dmg than blasters though. About 50% more at most ranges. And in eve 50% better costs waaay more than 50% extra, whether you pay in ISK or CAP. How on earth did you find that number .. you by any chance looking at Scorch(broken)/Null(recently revised)? Lasers doing more damage than blaster .. pftt.
You do get a damage reversal once you leave blaster optimal as defined by the falloff mechanics, but at all ranges? Also, how much of the dps is applied when blasters has a whopping 50+% higher tracking than pulses.
Lasers are sub-par to put it mildly if you remove Scorch from the equation and the ships using them have relied on the cap reduction to function .. it is one thing to need 2-4 fitting mods/rigs to over-size, but an entirely different one when you need 2-4 mods/rigs to use an appropriate/normal weapon yet that is where Amarr is at the moment. First is a choice, that 1600 plate on the cruiser comes at a cost .. the other is forced with no 'out' other than going off-race (Maller is still awesome with projectiles!).
For all you who seem to like progodlegend's post .. please for the love of all that is holy stop quoting the entire wall every time you add a line of consent. Digital or not, 5-6 posts per page is just wasteful |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
597
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Posted - 2013.04.15 14:23:00 -
[8] - Quote
Tasha Saisima wrote:Did blasters really get a 30% reduction not too long ago? Were they worse off than lasers? I believe the exercise was an attempt to make the mwd bonus a little more potent as the blasterships were still capping out all over place .. that MWD bonus was of course removed shortly thereafter and replaced with speed/mass tweaks so perhaps hybrids should get the cap use put back on them
Worse of than lasers is relative, we'll see how badly blasters are hit with TE reduction. But theory is/was that laser ships can sit on their asses and pound away while blaster ships have to run around to club people to death.
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Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
598
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Posted - 2013.04.16 05:30:00 -
[9] - Quote
I am really starting to get annoyed by that gimmick Nulli and I bet my patience is better than CCP's .. you sure you are not aiming that gun at your own foot?
Re-iteration of previous: With racial flavour for the large part being put out to pasture, something unique should be added to pedestal ships (Navy hulls + BS) of the various navies. Amarr's cap issues can be solved by giving a rolebonus saying 2x all effects of batteries. Doubles as increased defense against neuting (still don't know why the races eWar are designed to work best against themselves ) which is preventing Amarr hulls from making much of an impact on the small scale due to lack of mids for fight-control. A single large T2 battery would then (at atrocious fitting cost, but we can take it!) add 2 (bonus)*700 (battery)*1.25 (skill) = 1750 raw cap which should be enough to make ends meet. |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
599
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Posted - 2013.04.16 10:13:00 -
[10] - Quote
So, assuming the reluctance from CCP to lower cap cost to cover the hole made from bonus removal stems from threat of toff-race use, why not go the other way .. double/triple the effect of the elutriation rigs and keep the weapon cap reduction low. Can still go off-race, but fitting and rig requirements to make it work will prevent abuse and the real users get to save a rig or two for the situations where logistics are unavailable/scarce.
Combined with a light increase in base cap stats of affected hulls and we are set for a perfect continuation of the great Amarr tradition of chopping off extremities to make things click. |
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Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
601
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Posted - 2013.04.16 13:47:00 -
[11] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:... This is the hallmark of an unbalanced race. Compared to the other three races perhaps, but from a game balance viewpoint I'd say Amarr has the only truly balanced ship line in Eve. Ships are perfectly fine on 'their own' in small skirmishes, but when skirmishes turn into battles or right-proper shindigs that drag on and out there should be an almost mandatory requirement for logistics support .. bombing a single village is easily handled, but bombing an entire country takes a ton of background operations to be in place first.
Question is if CCP would rather take the rage by nerfing three races or our gratitude for taking us on-par .. or in other words, will they chose the good for the game option or the good for their sleep pattern options
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Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
606
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Posted - 2013.04.17 14:26:00 -
[12] - Quote
Jonas Sukarala wrote:CCP Rise have you considered reducing the ROF of laser turrets in exchange for some extra damage from the crystals? Will probably be considered as part of the laser overhaul he promised, but it will be in the winter patch at the earliest so what we are looking for now is a band-aid to tide us over until the real work can be done/put in.
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Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
607
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Posted - 2013.04.18 09:15:00 -
[13] - Quote
Hulasikaly Wada wrote:...Plus, even the Abaddon ( even if not totally fixing its thirsty ) will gain nicely from this -10% on cap If one is in dire need of a hammer, then being handed a good old stone feels like a blessing ..
Still say the Elutri rigs should have their numbers doubled. Sure off-race may rear its ugly head but at least they'd have to blow their rig slots in the same fashion .. could be a boon for hybrid users as well. Alternative is to increase cap on hulls affected, but that just opens up for neuting abuse (old Apoc was a notoriously good neutring boat and capacitor now is equal).
In short: Cap problem should be 'solved' through modules, not the weapons/hulls. Lasers have a revision coming up in the years to come so might as well leave them and look elsewhere for more generalized solutions.
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Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
607
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Posted - 2013.04.18 15:27:00 -
[14] - Quote
Hulasikaly Wada wrote:+1 about the rig, actually it is usefull but too much in competition with CCC and similar ones
Actually dont even know if it have a viable version for hybrid weapons ( i am sure noone will use it there even if T2 reduce for 50% of cap used there ) Hula Megathron is getting a RoF bonus I believe so it will feel the strain of the guns .. blasters may draw less but generally start firing with MWD running to take advantage of what can be done on approach (falloff).
Competition is healthy, even among modules/rigs. CCC is a completely different beast, one that has coexisted with the semiconductor in perfect harmony so doubt there will be much overlap .. Elutri rigs only benefit you if you are actually firing your guns whereas the CCC presents a static increase of recharge rate. |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
611
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Posted - 2013.04.20 12:28:00 -
[15] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:...Amarr Victor ? What's with all the mission arguments .. balance it for PvP and it will automatically work for PvE as the former pushes the boundaries a lot more.
Amarr Victor .. with one fitting mod, seven (7!) cap mods and a nonexistent tank? Might work if you have aggro control in all rooms down pat but that T1 repairer wont stand a chance otherwise
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Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
613
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Posted - 2013.04.21 16:57:00 -
[16] - Quote
What's the point of even talking about a Tachy Abaddon, tracking is atrocious and you restrict yourself to missions against Sansha/Blood/Eon. Tach's may be viable on the lower resist Apocalypse however, but then your cap will really be hurting as the requirement to tank 20% more is rather significant.
Missile Armageddon. No other option comes close .. double bonus use of TP to keep drones aggro free and assist missiles. Adopt or Die (not a typo ) |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
629
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Posted - 2013.04.26 22:56:00 -
[17] - Quote
Regolis wrote:...Megabeams will not fit with level 3 fitting skills. That is a problem. Cap usage on beams is so bad that without 5 in cap skills 5 in controlled bursts and 3-5 cap fitting modules on your ship that you CANNOT maintain your weapons... I have to ask: What the hell is a person doing in a battleship with level 3 basic skills, especially an Amarr ship?
Whenever someone asks me about starting skill queues, my answer invariably is "decide on a ship/class and train everything related to a minimum of 4, optimize by going to 5".
What you are really commenting on is CCP's efforts to make the "end-game" ever more accessible to newcomers by reducing skill requirements and what not, giving the poor sods the idea that BS are viable after just a few months of unorganized queuing.
On topic: - Lasers in general: With more and more ships losing the cap bonus there has to be an option other than injectors to bridge the chasm, prev. suggested batteries and/or doubling rig effect but anything goes as far as I am concerned. - Pulses are by and large fine. Reasonable fittings, cap drain could be balanced a bit better against dps but a minor adjustment, overall good performance. - Beams need something to make the sacrifices needed worthwhile. Dps can only be increased by increasing alpha (or cap use!) so not applicable, fittings need to be high'ish as LR guns are harder and Amarr grid is generally larger so we are left with improving tracking as in "there is no doubt what you want if tracking at LR is a priority!"
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Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
630
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Posted - 2013.04.27 07:07:00 -
[18] - Quote
Pathogen Ascention wrote:... A -30% PG/-30% Cap would have been a good place to start, in my opinion. It's not too huge or too small a change to have to completely re-evaluate the turrets. From there better planned incremental changes could happen. 30/30 is enormous, the opposite of 'not huge'. The only way to make that kind of change fly would be to reevaluate (read: nerf!) laser damage/range/tracking as it would effectively make it more than viable on off-race hulls.
Lasers were made fitting/cap intensive as a counterweight to their awesomeness, problem now is that apart from Scoooorch! they are rather mediocre if that. I would personally be completely content with the current grid/cap if the weapons were as good as those figures warrant, but since that would likely push them far beyond blasters in all aspects that matter, another solution must be found (God weapons are a nono, projectiles taught us that). Currently I am leaning towards increasing grid cost slightly (yes, you read that right), halving cap cost across the board and reducing cycle times by 5-10% (ie. +RoF). Tracking is among the worst there is, at least until lasers are revised and we 'hopefully' get some high tracking crystals so it even out. It is to me preferable to add a fitting mod Instead of filling every nook and cranny with rechargers, relays and whatnot to make ends meet.
But ... all that is for the laser revision which probably won't begin to take shape until next year so we are looking at either a temporary solution that can be rolled into future revision (hard to do without doing preliminary revision work) or a more permanent option that can be left in place even after revision, but that means it can not be hull/weapon specific as you'd risk breaking it with future changes.
Quite the tasty pickle really .. which I can only imagine is why the Devs are reluctant to stick their hands into our little piranha tank more than absolutely necessary. |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
645
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Posted - 2013.04.30 09:25:00 -
[19] - Quote
Naomi Knight wrote:..I wish they could make some racial bonuses for the ships over the current bonuses, that could solve this problem easily , while keeping lasers not wanted by other races... Not only that but it could make up for racial differences being designed out of the system entirely (Amarr kiters and drone boats, Minmatar brawlers etc.).
Previously suggested that BC, BS, Navy and T2 be given unique racial bonuses that attempts to close the biggest hole of a given race which in Amarr's case is now capacitor .. my suggestion was for Amarr to have the bonus of "batteries have twice the effect" but in retrospect a full doubling might be a bit much so say +50%, solves the immediate cap issues in most cases and allows for more benefits to be gained from lowslots (relays) with bigger pool affected.
Still have no thought out ideas about what the other three could/should have, no real experience with them so unaware of what holes they have .. mind you, I do not mean weaknesses but flaws that have arisen by design/balancing process.
Most recent brainstorm provided me with: - Minmatar's tied to agility. Their speed has been reduced a lot since their heyday (lol-Nano age) and they have several ships being nudged towards brawling, agility would allow them to make the most of what speed they have as well as increase viability of closer range alpha strikes (faster align). - Caldari tied to eWar use. With the promised eWar overhaul still in the SoonGäó column, why not increase cap use of all such modules by a factor of 3-4 to minimize abuse by anyone with a spare mid (looking at you TD!) and giving Caldari a hefty cap reduction on all non-tank midslot modules (racial eWar platforms (f.ex. Arbi line) would have similar reduction for that one module). - Gallente tied to armour tank. Suggest flipping it by turning current rep amount bonuses into cap reductions and applying a nanite efficiency bonus to above mentioned hulls that counts towards both local and remote repair. |
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